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Författare Ämne: Randaberg förbindelse mellan kung Sigurd Jorsalafares dotter och Ragnhild, gift med Norges hertig Skule  (läst 1277 gånger)

2007-02-08, 02:17
läst 1277 gånger

M.Sjöström

I have came across genealogies where there is a belief that Ragnhild, wife of Duke Skule, and mother of queen Margret, ancestress of almost all subsequent kings of Norway up to today;
would have been daughter of Jon of Randaberg
and (more importantly) his wife Ragnhild
Erlingsdottir, who herself was daughter of Kristin
Sigurdsdottir of Norway, daughter of king Sigurd I of Norway, nicknamed the Jerusalem-pilgrim.
 
I have discussed this with some of good medieval genealogists, and thus far it seems that while it is just one theory among several, it has not been totally rejected.
 
Does anyone know what are the precise grounds for the belief of that said lineage between king Sigurd Jorsalafare and king Magnus Lagaböter?
 
What, if any, would be primary sources for that precise daughter-mother-relationship between Ragnhild Erlingsdottir and Ragnhild Skuleswife,
(a) giving the relationship explicitly or near-explicitly?
(b) indicating or suggesting its existence?
 
What are historical facts that indicate or support
that lineage?
What would be historical facts that tend to disprove it?
 
Would there be any scholarly work, källkritiska secondary sources, to present that very genealogical relationship?
(and what are those secondary sources, precisely named?)
 
 
Personally, having checked some of facts (I am sure I am not yet aware of all relevant historical knowledge related to this issue), the connection seems yet possible, but improbable:
 
1) Duke Skule was born in c 1190 (and possibly even a couple of years later)
whereas because Ragnhild Erlingsdottir's first husband Jon of Randaberg was killed in June 1179, any child of that marriage must have been born in 1180 at latest, and probably was born already some years earlier.
While it is possible that for the sake of important advantages, a boy would have been married to a lady even 15 years his senior, that however was not customary nor anything else than rare.
Nor seems there be any indication in sources that ranghild would have been much older than Skule.
A lady born in 1170s, would have customarily been married (for the first time) already before the year 1200, and Skule was not yet at that time marriageable. There is no reference to an earlier marriage of Ragnhild Skuleswife (though even that would be possible).
If born in 1170s, Ragnhild Skuleswife would have been, by medieval standards, quite old (in her thirties or more) when giving birth to her attested daughters Margret, Ingerid and Ragnrid. Not impossible, of course, but more likely would, again, be a wife in her twenties.
On the other hand, it seems certain that even if a Randaberg, she would not have been much over 40 at the time of birth of any of her attested daughters with Skule.
 
2) Were Ragnhild Skuleswife a descendant of king Sigurd Jorsalafare, that would have been a fact worth boasting, both  
- by Duke Skule when claiming the royal throne, and already earlier, when challenging royal authority, and when taking the helm of what practically had been the Bagler faction
- by Earl Knut Haakonson, husband of Ragnhild's daughter Ingerid
- and by king Haakon IV, and monarchs of Norway who descended from Margret: Magnus VI, Eric II, Haakon V, and so forth
Indeed, knowing the weight the medieval culture put to descent, such descent would have been something like today's Highlighted in Media
However, we know of no mention (or do we?) of that  descent in Haakon IV's Saga nor in Magnus VI's Saga, not either in any other chronicle, legend or folklore of Scandinavia.
Personally I find the absence of such public and preserved boast a strong indication of the improbability of the genealogical connection at issue here. (Of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in cases like this, such absence is very indicative - some facts are just such that if the fact has existed, there almost certainly would be evidence.)

2007-02-08, 07:26
Svar #1

Kalle Thorsberg

Jag har inte stött på denna variant förut!
Enligt Norskt Biografiskt Lexikon (första upplagan), skulle Ragnhild eventuellt vara dotter till Niklas Kuvung, som i denna variant är gift med en Ragnhild dotter till Jon Torbergsson på Randaberg (dvs en förskjutning på en generation jämfört med Din id?).
 
Detta är P A Munchs gissning, baserad på att det i Fagrskinna cap 215 nämns en Ragnhild som dotter till Nikolas Kuvung och syster till Pål Flida.
 
Storm i Christiania Videnskabs-Selskabs Forhandlinger 1875, s 97, förkastar tidigt denna gissning av kronologiska skäl. Han menar att Niklas Kuvung är för gammal att ha en dotter gift med Skule. Jag anser att dessa kronologiska skäl är tveksamma.
 
Daae, i NHT 3R III, s 198 ff, menar att de är för nära släkt, tredje resp fjärde led från Skofte i Giske, för att accepteras som gifte utan dispens från påven. Dessutom nämner Fagrskinnas släktgenomgångar inget om ett sådant gifte.
Han föreslår att hon istället härstammar från Ragnhild dtr till Erling Skakke.
 
Om jag förstår Daae är allt rätt förutom att hon är dotter till just Kuvung, vilket möjligen passar med Din id?.

2007-02-09, 04:22
Svar #2

M.Sjöström

Did I understand correctly that it has been DAAE (in NHT 3 R III) who has (first) proposed that genealogical lineage I presented in the start?
(= Ragnhild Skuleswife were a daughter of Ragnhild Erlingsdottir)
 
And that P A MUNCH has (earlier) proposed that Ragnhild Skuleswife's father was Nikolas Kuvung of Giske - in a way that her mother, Nikolas' wife, would have been daughter or Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, herself daughter of Kristin Kingsdaughter?
 
And that all this, both alternatives, are almost pure guesswork, without any positive proof nor any positive indications of existence of such connection?
 
 
The chronology in the Munch scheme is not impossible (though it is tight, imo). King Magnus Erlingson was born in c 1156, thus his full sister, Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, could have been born in previous or next year. (In the Munch scheme, it cannot afford to be any later.)
 
Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, presumed hat she was not plenty of years younger than her full brother king Magnus, could have given birth to a daughter in mid-1170s; in, say, 1173.
 
Such daughter may have been married to a probably much elder Nikolas Kuvung, Lord of Giske.
 
And given birth to a daughter in the first half of 1190s. The probability that Nikolas Kuvung were plenty of years elder than his thus-supposed wife, does not prevent as itself him being father, nor becoming husband (in those days an elderly man rather often married a young woman of 17 or 18 as second or third wife, after previous wife died). As far as I have understood anything about Nikolas Kuvung, he was not dead at that time, but probably lived on until 1217 (which date, if true, speaks for his virility and good health yet in 1190s, irrespective of whether he was, say, in his fifties or sixties already then).
 
A lady born in the first half of 1190s, for example in 1192, would chronologically and customarily been well-acceptable wife for Skule (born in 1189 or so), but a bit tight fit of having her first child in 1209 or 1210.
 
Margret Skulesdottir is known to have been engaged in 1219 (barely ten years old, or possibly younger), marriage took place apparently in 1225, and she is attested to having given birth to several children all through 1230s, but to her first child apparently already in 1227 (bith years of her children seem to have been: 1227, 1232, 1234, and 1238).
All this points to Margret being born in 1209, or in 1210 at latest.
 
Whereby her mother should better been born before 1195; rather more likely in 1191 or 1192. Which would be a tight fit to a mother born in 1176, but totally possible for a mother born in, say, 1174 or 1173.
 
All in all, the proposed longer lineage, Ragnhild Erlingsdottir - wife of Nikolas Kuvung - Ragnhild, daughter of Nikolas - Margret Skulesdottir, would be chronologically feasible, although very tight fit which does not leave much latitude, but practically presumes that each mentioned person was the eldest child of her mother.
 
 
But that is yet pure realm of possible, not even that of probable.
I am still in want of any positive proof or indication of the existence of the lineage at all.
 
 
Would there exist any indications that some landed properties passed along such a lineage:
 
- that Ragnhild Skuleswife, Skule, or Skulesdottirs, held something tangible inherited from Giske, and from Randaberg, and from Erling Skakke ??
 
 
Is there anywhere in near-contemporary sources, or medieval genealogy legends, any information of any children or marriage, or otherwise of any issue, of the Ragnhild mentioned as daughter of Nikolas Kuvung in Fagrskinna cap 215?
 
 
And, why is there such an absence on part of Skule, or others, of any mention of Ragnhild Skuleswife descending from Giske or Randaberg or Kingsdaughter Kristin??
Or, is there?
 
Particularly, as Snorri certainly was giving all possible information to support Skule's position, and as Snorri would have had Skule and his wife to interview on matters related to parentage of the latter, why is there no mention in Snorri about any higher ancestry of hers?
Had she been daughter of Nikolas Kuvung, granddaughter of Ragnhild Erlingsdottir, or granddaughter of Kristin Kingsdaughter, granddaughter Erling Skakke, certainly such would somehow have been mentioned by Snorri somewhere in Magnus Erlingson Saga or other pertinent place, wouldn't it?
 
 
Regarding dispensation, such would rather easily been granted to a marriage between partners as distantly related as in 4th degree of consanguinity. Of course, if there is no proof of existence of such dispensation in the well-kept ecclesiastical registers, it would mean (1) that the granted dispensation did somehow not find its way to register (which is possible), or (2) that the couple married without dispensation, not at the time remembering the connection (which also is possible).
Besides, there is always the mystery of Pal of Giske, Nikolas' father, not being mentioned among Skopti's children in some places where all his sons dying en route in Mediterranean when in pilgrimage are carefully listed name by name. What if Pal was a more distant (agnatic) relative of the Giske chieftain dynasty than son of Skopti.
 
Ragnhild was, as far as I have understood, relatively favored name in Norway of those days, not rare nor limited to one or a few families. Thus, the mere repetition of the name Ragnhild should not be taken as positive indication of one Ragnhild being necessarily daughter or granddaughter of another Ragnhild.
Certainly, were there proof positive of even an indication of that lineage's existence, onomastica of Ragnhild would add credibility; but onomastics alone in regard to commonality of Ragnhild would not suffice as positive indication of existence of kinship.

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